Saturday 11 August 2012

Killer Arguments Against LVT, Not (228)

One of the supposed Killer Arguments goes something like this:

One school of thought which appears to be gaining traction with liberally minded people is a land value tax, which would be levied at a percentage of the value of any land one might own on an annual basis. This is portrayed as a tax that would hit the rich hardest, but actually its advocates do not understand that it would likely affect the rich the least.

So who would it affect the most? Let's take a few examples and determine who would be most ill affected by a land value tax in the UK.

The value of the UK housing stock is approximately £3.75 trillion. In order to raise last year's tax revenue of £550 billion using a land tax alone, we would need to set a flat tax of 14.6% of land value per year. Yes, that's not a typo, the cost of this tax on residential property would be absolutely eye watering...

[The total value of all land and buildings in the UK is more like £6 trillion, of course: he kicks off with a complete bare faced lie. He then does some worked examples based on the entirely flawed premise that landlords or farmers can pass on the tax in full as higher rents or food prices, as well as wilfully understating people's current tax bills and introducing a few sleight of hand mathematical errors]

Whom else would the land value tax negatively affect? Pensioners would be the obvious answer. Take a grandad on the state pension. He bought his council house, now worth £120,000, via the right to buy scheme, and now lives on the state pension of around £7,000 a year. His tax bill under the current scheme is simply VAT on his non-necessities. This is likely to be at or about £1,000 a year.

The land value tax would impose a tax upon him of £17,520 a year, or just over 250% of his income. Unless your goals in taxation are to make your grandad sell his home that he spent his whole life working to pay for*, the land value tax is not a progressive way forward.


Using a more correct estimate of the total value of all land and buildings in the UK of £6 trillion, the rate would be more like 9% (and that's assuming that fuel, fags and booze duties were to be replaced plus other bits and pieces. The actual full-on rate of LVT** would thus be more like 7%, half of what he says).

But the point is, how is that an argument? No matter how anything is divided up between a large group of individuals, the average amount per individual, or the amount for the median individual is always pretty much the same.

- There are 51 million adults in the UK; £550 billion divided by 51 million is an average of about £11,000 per individual. Some taxes are borne indirectly via corporations and pension funds, so we don't really notice, and the median adult earns less and pays less tax than the mathematical average, so the current tax bill for a median adult = about £7,000.

- If we collected that £550 billion on land/building values instead at the rate of 9%, the tax on a median home worth £160,000 would be £14,000, there are two adults in the median household, so the tax bill for a median adult = about £7,000.

To my mind about £7,000 in income tax, National Insurance, VAT etc is pretty much the same as about £7,000 in Land Value Tax, so comparing median bills is pointless and not an argument for or against anything. When people try to 'prove'that one of these figures is hugely larger than the other they just make themselves look stupid. Which they are.

* Well that's a bare faced lie, isn't it? If he bought his council house under Right to Buy, chances are he was paying a lot less in mortgage repayments than he would have been paying in rent, he has received a massive free gift from the taxpayer to subsidise it.

** To replace the big taxes Income Tax, National Insurance, VAT, corporation tax; as well as nuisance/wealth taxes like Business Rates, Council Tax, SDLT, Stamp Duty, CGT, Inheritance Tax, TV licence fee and Insurance Premium Tax.

28 comments:

Sarton Bander said...

It would hit real wealth creators the least, who are often wealthy.

This is another plus for LVT.

Sobers said...

He is right though. LVT moves the burden of taxation from those working to everyone, including those not working, which means predominantly pensioners pay more. Now you can say they don't have to pay it until they are dead, but they are still paying it. It makes little difference whether the State takes £7K/year off you, or £100K (say 15 years of retirement @ £7K/year) when you die. You are still being taxed the same. Given that all pensioners (and near pensioners) have paid the higher taxes on income all their working lives, a straight switch to LVT taxes them double. Under LVT a 20 yo will gain 45 years of paid employment at lower levels of tax before having to pay LVT in retirement. Anyone much over the age of 50-55 would effectively being taxed twice.

Kj said...

Sobers: yeah, much better having young people taxed double, part by govt, part by old people, then giving them the franchise of being tax-collectors themselves in their sunset days.

Mark Wadsworth said...

SB, the whole article didn't mention that. The example of a "wealthy person" he used was a landlord who owns ten houses (allegedly he would be able to pass on the tax to 'maintain his profit margin').

S, no they are not being taxed twice and you know it.

a) If the tax is rolled up until they die, then effectively their heirs pay it. So when Kirstie Allsop wails about her parents' tax bill, or you wail about your mother's tax bill, that's what you are really wailing about isn't it?

b) Tax and rent as a fraction of income was a lot lower sixty years ago (40%) and is now 54%.

So yer pensioner paid little in tax and bought a cheap house. Today's home buyer is being forced - partly by said pensioners - to pay a lot of tax and pay a lot for his house. And the pensioners are collecting that tax (however indirectly).

c) So what? It's a democracy and 12 million pensioners vote for whichever party offers the highest pensions and the lowest council tax, they couldn't really care about anybody else. There are 12 million under 40's who don't even vote, why shouldn't they have the opportunity of exercising their political power as ruthlessly as pensioners?

Kj, ta for back up.

Physiocrat said...

I have not noticed the big landowning interests rushing to support LVT. If the main beneficiaries are people like the old aristocratic families and the banks, who are the main landowning interests, how come they have missed this after 130 years? You would have expected them to fork out a chunk of their fortunes to pay for lobbyists and PR firms to convince everyone what a good idea LVT was? Why did the 1909 Lords and the 1931 Conservatives not jump on the opportunity when it was dropped into their lap? Or were they so stupid that they did not realise that LVT was mostly for the benefit of wealthy landowners?

Sobers, pensioners pay huge amounts of tax now. It is built in to the prices of everything, either directly through sales taxes or indirectly through employee taxes. Tesco's pays the PAYE/NICS nominally paid by their employees, but that tax is built into the prices of all the goods on the shelves.

People's real wages are the goods and services they actually buy with their take-home pay. Which is why it costs an employer so much to leave them better off than they would be on a meagre benefit.

Whether you are wealthy or not is only loosely connected with your success at wealth creation.

Mark Wadsworth said...

Phys, to put some numbers on it, according to the Daily Mail, average pensioner household pays £6,000 a year various taxes. I think that's an under-estimate but never mind.

Seeing as under full-on LVT, the tax on the average house would be £12,000 or so, if we give people born before 1947 a 50% discount, then nobody's any worse off :-)

Robin Smith said...

Yes but he is a home owning rent seeker himself. Who cares if he is a commie or libertarian. It makes no difference. All people of all classes are at it.

LVT is SEDITION plain and simple.

Try to raise it in public debate and ALL PEOPLE will want to see you nailed up. Because you are revealing the systemic hypocrisy, of even the planet savers like this.

Remember: ALL PEOPLE

The sooner we realise this and agree to start thinking more intelligently about how to approach it the better.

Alas we think we just have to keep giving infinite facts. Like hitting a pin with a mallet will fix it.

Keep up the good work though.

If anyone wants to start that new thought process you can reach me on gco2e.blogpsot.com.

Kj said...

My thoughts exactly. We shouldn't approach a practical proposal like LVT with facts, figures and real-life examples like done hereabouts, we should approach it like a philosophy that can only be understood in relation to Original Sin and the turn of events in the late-empire days of Babylonia, in turn leading to explaining why people eat at McDonalds today, for which knowing about, you will likely be a victim of persecution by the Illuminati. That way, people won't be rolling their eyes and doom the proposal further back on the shelves in the museum of quaint follies of nutters, not at all.

Physiocrat said...

Kj - I have been standing in this market place for 40 years. The fact that there is nothing wrong with the goods is not the reason why they are still stacked high on the stall. There are lots of perfectly delicious foods that people will not buy because they look a bit funny before they are peeled and on the plate.

There really is more to this than facts, figures and real life examples. LVT in some way threatens the very essence of many people's being. It has its historical and philosophical origins in, amongst other things, Calvinism, which is probably why it is a particular issue in the Anglo-Saxon countries.

Kj said...

Phys: LVT/collection of economic rent isn't the only proposal that is denied because of ideology or that some expect they will loose out from it, or not understood. I experience this with a lot of issues I discuss with people, that aren't high on the agenda. So what? Trying to ascribe this to some collective denial of a hidden truth and making the argument inaccessible to people, trying to flaunt how I've somehow overcome this, won't help a single bit, and IMO is just a recipe for fatigue/psychosis. I'm not denying that there is or ever was a concerted effort to oppose LVT.

Mark Wadsworth said...

Kj, ta for back up.

Phys: "LVT in some way threatens the very essence of many people's being."

Well no it doesn't, that's what the Homeys and Faux Lib's want people to believe. Fact is, if we did a full-on shift then after a few years, things would have settled down again and people would accept it as normal. Some people would earn more than others and live in nicer houses, other people earn less and live in not so nice houses.

Sure, there'd be less unemployment and fewer business failures etc, but people would get used to that and find something else to grumble about - like the LVT they have to pay. In fact, why would somebody with a job in future (who might or might not have been unemployed under current rules) be particularly thankful for whichever government did the tax shift? All the government is doing is allowing him to keep his own hard earned money, which is no big deal, really.

Physiocrat said...

I fear the Homeys have come to believe their own twaddle.

Mark Wadsworth said...

P, maybe they do, maybe they don't. The question is, would a neutral observer believe them or believe us?

Robin Smith said...

KJ

It may not be the only one denied. But it is the only one that requires total commitment to accept.

Because it forms the fundamental basis of property rights and nothing else does.

So, by asking to abandon tax on wealth creation and begin it on common asset enclosure is sedition of the highest order.

It is challenging everyone, left and right, rich and poor.

You will get mocked if not successful and nailed up if success starts as witnessed here a million times.

Robin Smith said...

MW

I'm backing up Phy here.

How you wish to commit yourself to a lifetime of dishing up infinite evidence always staggers me. Its almost as if you like it, regardless of the futility of it.

LVT is sedition plain and simple. There is no other like it. This is why EVERYONE denies it, even I suspect you in a funny way as you are not willing to look beyond the current system and into what a future with LVT will be like.

Both you and KJ are implicitly saying "there is no silver bullet"

Oh dear oh dear.

Kj said...

It may not be the only one denied. But it is the only one that requires total commitment to accept.

Please remind me of all that I have to commit to, to accept that LVT is the most just and economically sensible way of raking in tax-revenue.

How you wish to commit yourself to a lifetime of dishing up infinite evidence always staggers me. Its almost as if you like it, regardless of the futility of it.

This is quite amusing. You accuse MW and the non-religious "faction" of LVT-proponents of doing unrewarding work, while going about the same task asking people to "think about root cause" as the only way forward? Making stuff obscure and inaccessible, and sounding like an evangelist is big in the political marketing scene in the UK nowadays? Asking people what their agenda is and accuse people not into the evangelical thing of being collaborators of the TPA, landowners and bankers etc., seriously, that's a good marketing strategy? Ok then.

Kj said...

Both you and KJ are implicitly saying "there is no silver bullet"

Oh dear oh dear.


FFS

Robin Smith said...

KJ

I understand why you have taken my comment personally. Its questioning core beliefs. If you want to meet up I'd be quite happy to talk about it? We meet Fridays in Leicester Sq.

Read this link ... in a quiet moment and do not speed read it as the point is subtle:

http://gco2e.blogspot.co.uk/2012/08/no-wonder-no-one-agrees-with-you-lvt-is.html

Apologies you will need to try me again on your last para and the following comment, I cannot understand you? What does FFS mean and why did you say it?

Kj said...

I understand why you have taken my comment personally. Its questioning core beliefs.
If you want to meet up I'd be quite happy to talk about it?


Yeah that's it, you really outed me there. Thanks for the offer though.

Physiocrat said...

Both sides of this argument are correct. LVT questions core beliefs at a deep level. That was one of the reasons why SES taught both economics and philosophy. SES philosophy has an interesting history which I will not relate here but is relevant. The trouble is that it can lead to withdrawal or inaction.

It does no harm, and may do some good, to promote the LVT case at a surface level and can be fun as long as one does not expect success. Opposing the arguments against LVT is like catching fish in a barrel. It may prompt people to look more deeply into things and THAT could lead to changes.

The process of understanding the LVT case also leads to the realisation that almost everything said about economics is nonsense and founded on nonsensical assumptions which are easily exposed.

Promoting the LVT case is not difficult when there are already taxes resembling LVT in operation, as in the UK. They can easily be presented as a tidying-up operation, which makes opposition look ludicrous. The biggest problem at the moment is outfits like Tax Justice which spread misinformation and confusion.

Mark Wadsworth said...

Ph, just as bad as TJN are the Taxpayers' Alliance, who do fine work exposing waste and overspend, but who are resolutely anti-Council Tax and pro-Value Added Tax.

Kj said...

It does no harm, and may do some good, to promote the LVT case at a surface level and can be fun as long as one does not expect success.

So who is to judge who are surface supporters an not, and how do you draw that line? Committment to the notion that LVT will reduce obesity and recreational drug use?
This "questioning committment" bollocks belongs to Marxist-Leninist-parties of the 60s an 70s, and is totally irrelevant other than an exercise in small-group dynamics.

The process of understanding the LVT case also leads to the realisation that almost everything said about economics is nonsense and founded on nonsensical assumptions which are easily exposed.

That's absolutely true, and I also agree there are significant philosophical aspects of LVT.

Robin Smith said...

Folks see here. Its subtle but simple. Speed reading will not work:

The Robin Smith Institute - Real Reform: I'm an LVT fascist. What if its true though?

KJ In what way have I outed you? I'm serious about meeting you. Why not put your money where you mouth is?

Kj said...

KJ In what way have I outed you?

In that I'm a secret supporter of landownerism, and only follow these blogs to sow discontent.

I'm serious about meeting you. Why not put your money where you mouth is?

Because you'd instantly recognise me as Michael Hudson *and* Richard Murphy. But seriously, I don't live in the UK, but thanks.

Physiocrat said...

I said "promote LVT at a surface level". eg concentrating on the practical aspects like ease of collection, prevention of avoidance, removal of disincentives. It's what I do most of the time. But there is a philosophy underneath it and it emerges as soon as people start discussing questions such as fairness and raise the matter of the 95 year old widow in the £100 house her husband bought with his demob money in 1946, which is now worth millions of pounds.

Robin Smith said...

KJ You speed read it didnt you :)

I have pointed to observed fact: that you projected your aggression without cause. That indicates you are hiding something in the post close to your core beliefs being challenged. Why else would you be so rude. But I'm not sure so I want to know what that thing is.

On what I think of you character you are presuming by projection again. "reading my mind". But that is not fair because you have made up my mind, about you, for me, a priori.

I genuinely want to meet you to see why you get so angry when your core beliefs are challenged.

How about a skype call. Its free? Money where mouth is!

Physiocrat said...

Take it easy chaps. Is there something in the air? I it Post Olympic Stress Disorder?

Kj said...

RS: I'm fully aware that I need to be questioning core beliefs in person with you to be really really pro LVT. And according to your blogpost, even then very few make the cut. Since only a couple of people you met actually support LVT by your standards, I'm betting that I wouldn't either, but somehow I'm fine by that. But once again, thanks!